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Post by Hereticus on Feb 4, 2014 12:38:18 GMT -8
So without a doubt - Ground vehicles were already in the decline or rendered mute all together with various game updates and mechanics.... Infantry were out-ranging and killing tanks faster and more effectively then tanks could kill tanks, the Harassers once were used to disrupt enemy battle-lines but then they took a large health/armor nerf delegating them to fringe harassment units.
The new squad vehicle spawning is the nail-in-the-coffin for ground vehicles. With the ability to just instantly squad-spoawn on a squad owned galaxy combined with the recent ESF Update the air-game is at the height of it's power and effectiveness not yet seen sense the days of old.
With the situation as bleak as it is for ground-vehicles it's time to get creative. Like the zombie apocalypse it's time for these ruined old hulls and scrap metal to once more roam the battlefield. I ask this simple question...
"How do we make the ground-vehicles competitively effective when faced with the limitations of speed, Redeployment, and Resource restrictions?"
Some ideas i've got already....
Reinvent The Convoy:
The convoy was pulling a large armored group and using it as a method to break the enemy battle-line with enough Dunderers to be self-sufficient and not need to fallback to a resupply post. This strategy had it's effective use but was rendered ineffective and scrapped alltogether with the coming of Lattice and the effective use of re-deployment.
With recent buffs to the Basilisk turrets and AMS being made a passive ability to free up a Utiltiy slot the Convoy has a chance to return...
The idea is simple... Abandon any notion of any and all ground vehicles except for the Sunderer. In a basic 12 man squad you spawn only 4 Sunderers w/ 3 Engineer crews.
Equipment Loadout:
- Basilisk x2 w/ Thermal Optics, Extended Magazines, and Ammo Capacity.
- Performance Slot: Racer 3. You lose maneuverability but gain the ability to keep pace with the speed of a Harasser.
- Defensive Slot: Blockade. This makes the Sunderer increadibly powerful with how much damage it can soak up.
- Utility Slot: Fire Suppression. This allows Sunderer's to self-repair 15% of there total health.
- Utility Slot: (Situational) Gate Shield Diffuser. This allows the battle-sundy to pass through gates and go straight for the heart of a facility, Even allowing your squad to reinforce a objective, Squad-spawn in vehicles ignores the No-Deploy Zones... Only useful at Tech-Plant and classic style Amp-Stations.
Dedicated Anti-Air Hunters:
With the proven effectiveness of the Squad-Spawn Galaxy it's only a matter of weeks before the vast majority of Outfits are trying to use this maneuver against us. True to form we must develop countermeasures to use against it. As far as ground-based Anti-Air there's no more powerful a weapon then the Skyguard Lightning-Tank.
Galaxies will orbit at the flight ceiling where all Bursters, Lock-On Rockets, and other ground based AA can't touch them or at best do minor chip-damage. The only effective counter is the Skyguard which has the range and damage to sufficiently damage and destroy a Galaxy at the flight ceiling.
In a basic 12 man squad you field 1 Ammo-Sunderer, 3 Engineers. 1 Repair Sunderer, 3 Engineers. 3 Skyguard Lightning Tanks, 3 Engineers. 1 Harasser, 2 Engineers and a third wildcard.
The Sunderers are the lifeblood supporting the unit, the Skyguard are the muscle creating the No-Fly Zone, and the Harasser is self-defense to counter any threats that might rise up against the Anti-Air teams.
Equipment Loadout:
Sunderer:
- Basilisk or Walker x2 (Players choice) w Zoom Optics, Extended Magazines, Ammo Capacity. The idea here is to create a net to deal with enemy ESF'S and Liberators as well as any other threat that might arise. Basilisks are utility for all threats but lack range - Walkers give you range but restrict you to only Anti-Air.
- Performance Slot: Rival. This gives the Sunderer control and maneuverability to Keep the Skyguards supplied without being clumsy and getting in the way.
- Defensive Slot: Area Repair or Ammo. This allows the Sunderer to either Repair the Skyguards or Keep them supplied with ammo.
- Utility Slot: Fire-Suppression. This allows the Sunderer to self-repair 15% of it's total health pool making it easier for the Engineers.
Lightning Tank:
- Skyguard Primary Cannon w/ Zoom Optics, Reload Time, and Ammo Capacity.
- Performance Slot: Rival. The Lightning on it's own is a incredibly fast vehicle with a small profile. Rival gives you the much needed stability and control as well as reverse speed needed when handling a tank as fast as the Lightning.
-Defensive Slot: Stealth. Ordinarily a vehicle is automatically revealed on your mini-map radar at a certain distance, This gives the enemy intelligence so they can sneak up onto you with infantry or even focus-fire you, Firing your weapon also gives away your position on the mini-map. With max-rank stealth all of this is hidden forcing players to hunt you down with there eyes alone. With Stealth you can maximize your ability to stay in a position shooting the enemy for a longer period of time before being attacked.
-Utility Slot: IR Smoke. The only significant threat to the Skyguard Tank is enemy ground forces. Ideally the Skyguard will be positioned at the top of a hill/ridge or in a open field where it has maximum coverage of the sky. IR Smoke allows the Tank to back-peddle using it's rival chassi and pop smoke so the enemy cannot see which direction you bugged out to for a clean escape. IR Smoke also breaks lock-on rockets ability to lock-on.
Harasser:
(Leaving this loadout open for Toasterovens input of how a single Harasser can effective cover a AA unit)
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Post by Hereticus on Feb 4, 2014 12:44:51 GMT -8
So outside of Reinventing the Convoy or dedicated AA counters.... Any other suggestions to answer the question? Or anyone have any additions to those 2 tactics?
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Post by magnifiscent on Feb 4, 2014 13:04:45 GMT -8
Suggestions for AA hunters -
Drop the repair sundy and grab 3 more skyguards. Use 2 harassers with 2 engineers each with halberds. Put a cobalt and a bulldog on the ammo sundy or just roll with dual basilisks (they eat up air too).
That gives you 6 lightnings for air threats. If you work closely with skywatch to bait targets into an AA trap, you can wipe out enemy air and provide a huge bubble of safety for ground attack aircraft. As a pilot, I can tell you the real strength of AA is not the individual unit but in the ridiculous scaling you get from having multiple AA sources.
Lightnings are very fast and so if you get galaxy bombed, you can scatter and let the sundy and harassers pick off the infantry. The harassers give you some nice beef against enemy armor pushes and 6 skyguards will melt an enemy tank in a hurry.
There are times when we don't have enough planes in the air to effectively fight some of the other air wings out there. In an even fight we can handle someone like recursion, but when we're outnumbered, things get messy quick. Having an armored AA group like could extend air superiority. The lightnings are fast. The biggest threat is moving around unsupported. 6 lightnings with support could run around basically unopposed and shut down the air anywhere they desired. There isn't anything that can shrug off 6 skyguards - no air group large enough can take out 6 skyguards without at least extreme losses.
The biggest problem I see with our armor usage right now is that we don't commit to a single line of advance. We're the redeploy experts and so we jump all over the place. Armor can't follow that quickly. What I would suggest would be to either detach the armor and let them roam while we redeploy, or we commit to a single lane of attack and use the armor as our anchor point.
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Post by magnifiscent on Feb 4, 2014 15:59:45 GMT -8
Prowler Platoon:
I'm certainly not the most genius tactician of all Planetside and I bow to the superior knowledge of the Mech boys (boyz?), but I can take a shot at this.
I don't think anything brings as much pure destructive force to bear as a unit of prowlers except for, maybe, liberators. Prowlers with anchor mode and the right secondary gunner can lay down an incredible amount of fire power. Properly supported with infantry and air, they represent a strong backbone that can support an entire offensive.
From my aerial perspective, tanks are useless in three situations:
1. Lone tanks unsupported - Nothing screams free certs like a single MBT in the open with no help. Likewise, an MBT without infantry support is just asking to eat some decimators or C4.
2. A mass of tanks clogging a road way - When you get too many tanks, they get in each other's way. This eliminates the mobility. Only the first few tanks can hit their target which means much of the tanks' firepower is completely wasted. A good galaxy bomb or effective harassment from the air or ground will see a LOT of resources evaporate.
3. Enclosed facilities (biolabs, air towers, octagon, etc) - There are places they can't go, targets they can't hit, and places they touch.
What size unit is optimal?
There are real tankers in this outfit, so correct me if I'm wrong, but the US military uses tanks in pairs called sections. Sections are built into platoons of 4-5 (2 sections and a platoon commander). When in doubt, imitate the experts. For our purposes, I think anything more than 4 tanks is a waste. Most passes will not allow you to get more than 2-4 tanks abreast and any formation more than 2 tanks deep is a traffic jam. 4 tanks are more than enough to overwhelm small enemy units or larger disorganized groups and is small enough to stay out of each other's way. If the need arises, they can also break into pairs for better mobility or coverage.
What should their role be?
I think tanks work best when they are supporting infantry and when infantry are supporting them. This means FAR more than just killing infantry though. This also means shutting down the mobility of enemy infantry. We've all been in situations where we'd like to use a certain route on foot, but can't because that damn magrider on the hill is camping a certain door. Instead we have to funnel into the wall of enemy fire at the other door and we are effectively shut down. There are times when just the presence of the MBTs limits the options of enemy infantry, even if the tanks aren't scoring kills.
We have a similar relationship in the air. Sometimes we're just flying around muttering to ourselves about our genetic superiority while our mud buddies grab the glory. Sometimes that means our score per minute sucks or we get fewer certs. However, the foot plebes would not be able to do their wonderful work without us, so by just being there we are advancing the war effort.
What are their limitations?
Local mobility is good, terrain allowing, but redeploying across a continent is not possible with any speed. Natural and artificial choke points exist. Mountains, valleys, and fortifications restrict the movement of armor.
One thing we rarely have to deal with in the air is line of sight - we are above it all and can get in the nooks and crannies. Armor is limited by line of sight (currently) and so there is a limit to what they can shoot at.
How do we best use them?
Armor is useful as either a Hammer or Anvil. At least, that's how I view it as I'm biased towards this tactic. The Hammer is a swift, hard hitting unit that assaults a flank or weak spot. The Anvil is the hard base that you smash the enemy on. Tanks can provide a nice strong back bone for either, or both.
The trick is that they need to be part of a larger effort. Infantry protect them up close, air protects them from range, and the whole unit advances under the umbrella of firepower provided by the armor OR locks down an enemy while the armor (supported by air) hits the enemy from the flank.
Unit Comp - 12
Tank 1:
AP/Halberd with two engineers
Anchor, NAS, Rival
Tank 2:
Heat/basilisk with two engineers
anchor, NAS, Rival
Tank 3:
Heat/Halberd with two engineers
anchor, NAS, Rival
Tank 4:
HE/Heat/Kobalt/Halberd with two engineers
Anchor, NAS, Rival
Skyguard x 2 (engy x 2)
Fire Suppression, NAS, Rival
Sunderer (Engy x 2)
Kobalt/Bulldog, Basilisk/Bulldog
Ammo, Fire Suppression, Rival
4 Tanks with mixed roles; losing a single tank doesn't leave a gaping hole in the unit composition. HEAT tanks can provide decent support in multiple roles with the AP providing strong back bone against enemy armor and HE laying down a lot of AI hurt. Secondaries should be fairly long range with accuracy and supplement the whole unit's fire power - Halberds are a good choice. Kobalts provide close-in infantry defense or medium range suppression. Basilisks provide consistent rapid fire damage against fast targets like enemy lightning and harassers; doing a little constant damage will often cause people to be less aggressive and give your main guns better shots.
The skyguards provide a strong air deterrent. They are enough to waste ESFs, scare liberators, and worry galaxies. They may not get kills directly, but they will provide a strong air shield if friendly air is unavailable or provide a nice helping hand to engaged friendly air.
The Sundy is available for ammo, long range AI fire support, spawning, and light armor protection.
Replacing losses
Prowlers can only be pulled in certain places and will often need escort to reach the front lines again, but friendly air can be tasked to provide that escort (and we would be more than willing).
Implementation
Using this formation as an anchor for friendly infantry support, back up spawning, or long range target suppression and fire support could add a hefty back bone to a traditional advance. Two infantry squads advancing with the support of an armored unit and some air would be nearly unstoppable unless directly opposed by a zerg. Best used in the open areas of Esamir, low-lands of Amerish, or Indar. Commanders should follow lines of advance that take terrain into consideration and not merely lattice links when able (J908 presents problems for advancing tanks, for instance).
The best part of this is that the tanks remain mobile. If we hit an enemy advance, we can hold that advance down with infantry while the tanks back off and prep to hold a choke point. When the infantry releases, they can spawn on galaxies and galaxy bomb advancing armor (after it meets our prowler line) or spawn on the prowlers' sundy to strengthen their line. Skywatch can provide flanking air support as able and air superiority in cooperation with the skyguards.
Things to avoid
Mountain Passes for sure. Anything that limits the sight lines of the prowlers and lets air or infantry approach too close is a deathtrap. Either push through, or bring in infantry and air to provide close support. Look at the British Navy's setup during their attack on the Falkland Islands for inspiration. They lost some warships after parking them in a bay surrounded by mountains. Argentinian fighter bombers came over the mountains and attacked the ships before the ships could respond. The better your sight-lines, the safer you are.
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Post by Hereticus on Feb 4, 2014 17:27:22 GMT -8
There's a plethora of problems with MBT's atm that just render them on average a pointless vehicle to spawn, True enough there are exceptions to the rule but on average in my experience you pull a Tank to lone-wolf and farm pub zergs for certs... That's it... To go into further detail on the plight of the MBT see here: No Auraxis for Tanks!Ultimately though for Competitive purposes there's no justification at all to spawn a MBT, You just cannot make it a competitive machine at this point in the games build. The other vehicles though still have a fighting chance. Looking at the Sunderer convoy though with how powerful Basilisks are I'm thinking of using Battle-Sunderers in teams of 2 to replace the MBT because of how effective battle-sunderers are. |
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Post by trcommissar1 on Feb 5, 2014 5:28:16 GMT -8
I don't think the Prowler is a competitive platform anymore because:
1. It's weaker than the Vanguard and Magrider in their current forms due to having less survivability than the Vanguard and Less Maneuverability than the Magrider all while having a mediocre main cannon that doesn't even touch the Magrider's pinpoint accurate gun; and it might be slightly better than Vanguard's (Although, I prefer the one shot ESF ability that cannon has unlike the Prowler and I always favor burst damage theory in PvP environments.)
2. The render distance AV mana turret stuff and zerg lock-on spam you've covered in great detail already.
3. Vehicles can't get on capture points and are only used to break other zergs of vehicles camping bases.
All-in-all i'm really upset with the current state of the game and vehicles in general being so terrible for the TR. The faction as a whole is suffering massively because of the very comparatively weak MBT it has. I really wish the devs continued releasing vehicles after the Harasser, but considering the nerf of the Harasser which kept our faction still somewhat competitive in the vehicle game after that patch it pretty much ended. Currently the devs seem obsessed with continent revamps and stuff, but the core game in the end is what matters, and I see a really bad state of vehicle balance right now that is killing the TR and hurting the game as a whole.
As possible bandaids until the devs get their shit together, if ever:
1. Massive sundy spam as you said.
2. Full air dominance with complementary sundies.
3. ONLY air and deep strikes using gals relying on squad beacons and revives controlling single capture point rooms and biolabs only. (we pretty much see most of our success with this as is anyway.)
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Post by PoorRichard (AKA - The Guido) on Feb 6, 2014 7:15:58 GMT -8
With the massive nerfs that have struck the Harasser, its role has become questionable. Best thing for the Harasser to do, is as a scout running ahead of the convoy. Now, the convoy isn't some awesome mechanized behemoth running across the plains or barreling through valleys anymore. It should be thought of as a small pinpoint strike force. An idea that I've been toying with could work with one or two squads. It's a variation on a concept we used in Iraq. There we would have a section of tanks (2 tanks) attached to a platoon of infantry (light or mechanized, it didn't matter). So here, we can take 2 tanks,2 Sunderers, and maybe a skyguard. We could add a couple Harassers to scout ahead and maybe drop a couple infiltrators to hack terminals, start caps, and/or harass the enemy from sniping positions.
The role of the harasser is more to sow confusion by attacking the enemy's flanks and drawing their attention away from the approaching Sundies. The tanks are there to provide fire support for the troops on the ground. After a forward base has been set (deployed Sundies), if the harassers survive, their job becomes the disruption of enemy troop and light armor movements.
The great thing about this concept is that it is scalable to the situation and size of your force. Just an idea. With the convoy, always think about the crunchies and always think about those pesky flies, big and small. Both can mean a quick end to the mechanized and light infantry push when used right.
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Swatzikins XOXO #YOLOSWAG
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Post by Swatzikins XOXO #YOLOSWAG on Feb 6, 2014 11:32:31 GMT -8
Lightning realistically along with sunderers and recon flashes are the most versatile. You're not going to see harassers be the end game for a battle anymore but lightnings sundies and flashes of the scout radar persuasion have all time in and time out finished a battle or turned the tide in one direction or another. MBT's nope ... To big, to slow, not versatile enough. Harassers Same issue with size and survivability. Air ESF's and Libs in small numbers can preform well overall Any vehicle that isn't the MBT or harasser can be used effectively.
Then again magriders have mobility and vanguards have survivability which both of them can be used in a limited format as the mag has a seriously limited arc and firing angle by comparison to the prowler and same goes with the Vanguard with respect to how slow the damned thing is. Most of the work will be done by the gunner.
If we used the prowlers speed with mine guard maybe it might stand a chance but it makes more sense if all the MBT's were liker harassers driver and gunner alone. The prolwer suffers because it's fabulously fast and maneuverable but people want deploy mode which in every case is useless when assaulting.
The whole notion of respawning negates any effect suppression has. So back to the main point No MBT's aren't going to work unless all of them get their secondary guns removed and have a driver and a gunner that's it maybe give the driver an mg to play with where he has to move the tank's body but that's it.
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Post by magnifiscent on Feb 6, 2014 14:54:25 GMT -8
I just absolutely disagree with the MBT stuff considering how often vanguards and magriders change the infantry game. I don't think the Prowler is a competitive platform anymore because: 1. It's weaker than the Vanguard and Magrider in their current forms due to having less survivability than the Vanguard and Less Maneuverability than the Magrider all while having a mediocre main cannon that doesn't even touch the Magrider's pinpoint accurate gun; and it might be slightly better than Vanguard's (Although, I prefer the one shot ESF ability that cannon has unlike the Prowler and I always favor burst damage theory in PvP environments.) 2. The render distance AV mana turret stuff and zerg lock-on spam you've covered in great detail already. 3. Vehicles can't get on capture points and are only used to break other zergs of vehicles camping bases. All-in-all i'm really upset with the current state of the game and vehicles in general being so terrible for the TR. The faction as a whole is suffering massively because of the very comparatively weak MBT it has. I really wish the devs continued releasing vehicles after the Harasser, but considering the nerf of the Harasser which kept our faction still somewhat competitive in the vehicle game after that patch it pretty much ended. Currently the devs seem obsessed with continent revamps and stuff, but the core game in the end is what matters, and I see a really bad state of vehicle balance right now that is killing the TR and hurting the game as a whole. 1. All true, but irrelevant. I'm not suggesting you hunt MBTs with this group, I'm suggesting you support the infantry with lots of firepower. I think we need to redefine the role of the prowler from MBT to fire support platform. 2. This is an issue for every vehicle. It's a legitimate problem, but one that is mitigated with teamwork. Yeah, it is frustrating as all hell to be attacked by something you can't attack back, but you learn to deal with it. Move away, get someone faster or more suited to hit the target for you - whatever works. There WILL be times when there is a cohesive and integrated defense that armor and air just won't be able to touch. That's the reward for putting together an integrated defense like that. It's hard to do and should be rewarding. Either we find a way to power through, change our tactics, or go somewhere else. 3. Just because you can't sit on a capture point anymore doesn't mean you aren't contributing. There are places where you can't directly attack the capture points, but you CAN shut down defenders and force them to use interior routes and tunnels. Even the infantry is smart enough to hold a doorway when they aren't at risk of being flanked by defenders. Is that why every base assault ends in a massive camp of spawn rooms full of people who are too afraid to step out? If someone takes fire immediately after stepping out of a door way or spawn and they stop using that door way or spawn, you have suppressed them. I absolutely disagree with this statement. Again, I think you're trying to make the prowler fit your conception of its role rather than what is actually useful about it. That's like insisting on Racer 3 airframe just because the mosquito is the "fastest" ESF. That aspect of the mosquito is useless, trying to make that the lynch-pin of your tactics is going to be exceedingly frustrating. Prowlers have anchor and fast-firing guns - that's their strength, imo. Sure, we don't get one-hit kills, but there are also fewer gaps in the stream of damage we can put out. With multiple guns firing at once, you can saturate a target with relentless fire. With good sight-lines and support, anchor allows prowlers to hit from extreme range. If the enemy pulls weapons and shifts their focus to address the prowler threat, it weakens their infantry and air defense. Back off if it gets too hot with the knowledge that an engy sitting on an AV turret is a fantastically vulnerable target for air or infantry. We get the same problem with skywatch - eventually the enemy infantry gets pissed about us being around. They pull burster maxes and lock-ons and get in AA turrets. Every burster max that gets pulled is one less mowing down infantry with hacksaws or blueshifts. Every eye in the sky is another not watching the ground. Every manned AA turret is another guy not able to protect the cap point. When it gets too hot, we pull back until those guys are forced to respond to our ground. And then we come back and farm some more if we need to. MBTs focused on laying down a continuous stream of explosions could be incredibly effective with the right support. They are the liberators of the ground game - all it takes is the right application and support and they could be unstoppable. |
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Post by Hans1942 on Feb 7, 2014 12:50:31 GMT -8
Ummmmmm how about 3 skyguards and 9 Repair Sunderers with Kobalts on top. We then slow down and just take one route of attack. Protected from air and protected from vehicles.
The Convoy should always be moving forward in the open and never stopping. The convoy should always have engineers repairing when the convoy has struck a base and is supplying fresh troops to the capture point.
Really Planetside is a game of Sundererside and many times our momentum is stopped because no one likes to baby the Sunderers. If we could have the mechanized unit always have fresh supplies of sundees going, we can push so much better than we normally do.
Forget about MBTs. They get taken out easily by engineers and heavies and Galaxy drops.
The way I see it is the following:
Ground forces fight on base premises and go for point.
Air suppresses spawn with squad drops and bombing. Air can also suppress enemy armor very well with Heavy/LA drops.
Armor keeps the flow of ground forces continuous so that we never lose the spawn. Bulldogs can also help them farm.
tl;dr We need Armor to act more like support so that we can sustain a push.
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Post by magnifiscent on Feb 7, 2014 13:38:04 GMT -8
I can't argue with that so much, Hans. I was mostly trying to think of ways MBTs could be useless, but I was ignoring the opportunity cost of running the MBTs vs sunderers.
I think a unit of sundies is probably the best use of armor right now. Bulldogs, basilisks, and kobalts are all really good. Supported by skyguards, you make rangers and walkers obsolete. The nearly endless supply of viable sunderers for spawning is a necessity in this game.
Spawn pressure is everything, imo.
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